We asked him about several things related to the government, the current situation, and the future. We also asked him about GovTech, obviously. You won’t want to miss out on all he has to say.

First of all, taking into account your background and your career, we’d like to know how you envision the future of government management, considering the complex social and geopolitical situation today.

It’s a turning point. There’s a contradiction between people’s demands and expectations, due to the type of relationship they have with governmental agencies. And there is a divide in terms of the ability of the different governments to meet those expectations and demands of citizens who, in the end, are digital natives.

To solve all this, there is a first part that has to do with technology, with a technological revolution that translates into tools to streamline governmental processes. The other part is more cultural; it’s about changing the relationship between citizens and governmental agencies. It’s about going from a culture where citizens are asked to be at the service of the governmental agencies to one in which it’s necessary to re-establish the principle of public service; to be provided to the public, for the public. That is, having governments that serve citizens and not citizens that serve governments.

An example of this great challenge is to rethink public services, approaching them in terms of the events in citizens’ lives, such as the birth of a child, taking them to school, marriage, and divorce. There, what citizens expect is to be able to search for all the available services related to that event on their mobile phones. This requires all the governmental agencies that have to do with the event to organize to serve citizens, and not citizens to organize to serve the government.

You asked me what I think the governments of the future will be like. I believe that they’ll be much more human and much more technological, with technology allowing us to rethink the processes that we’ve just talked about. There is the topic of agility and innovation, but also of transformation.

Thinking a little about what you were saying about designing while taking into account people’s life experiences, we realize that we have great diversity in the world as far as people are concerned. When approaching this design, what should this transformation be like in order to cover and take into account all those needs?

This theme fits well with current debates on digital exclusion and digital divides. An example we work with a lot is that of ethical principles for the responsible use of new technologies, including the prevention of biases and new forms of exclusion. For example, Artificial Intelligence (AI) is a topic that is covered a lot because it’s a way to create new digital exclusion.

I can tell you stories about some countries, like Colombia that have made a lot of progress on these issues; in particular, on the ethics of AI. The risk of bias or exclusion is higher in these countries, due to a lack of formality. The fact of the matter is that the new technologies are, in the end, smart data systems, so everything depends on the quality of the data. In unequal societies and, especially, informal economies, there are many people who don’t “exist” (because they don’t want to, or because they can’t) virtually… what I call the “data poor.” People who don’t generate data.

During the pandemic, for example, in countries like Peru and Colombia they realized that many of the people who most needed emergency aid did not exist in the records, so reaching these people was a great challenge. Thus, although technology can help solve some of these challenges, it can also spawn certain risks of exclusion. There is that dual nature.

How can GovTech participate in these transformations?

This is an issue that is very important for the OECD and for others – including the Government of Biscay, who we collaborate with in their GovTech Lab.

GovTech is something of an unexpected first date between bureaucracies and start-ups. They are entities that, at first glance, seem totally opposite but, in reality, they’re not. On the one hand, there are governmental agencies, which have different reasons (such as job stability) for not using new technologies… but even so, they demand innovation. On the other hand, there are start-ups, full of very active digital youth with great business networks and who are eager to contribute to the public sphere, to society. When those two parties come together, the GovTech ecosystem is born, a link between the public and the private spheres that allows the government to work with start-ups to solve public problems using new technologies and data.

We also wanted to ask you how you think governmental agencies can shed that “bad reputation” they usually have. How can they regain the public’s trust?

At the OECD there is real concern about this issue. There is technology that, as we have said, has its good points, bringing citizens closer to the government, but it also creates a risk of exclusion.

Then there is the factor of regulating social networks to avert the misinformation and polarization generated by algorithms, since these tools polarize political debate and frustrate consensus and moderation, which are fundamental parts of democratic debate. Everyone may have different opinions, but there’s a space in which consensus can be reached to move forward.

At the OECD, we carried out a survey called the “Trust Survey” with all the countries that belong to the organization. The survey was about what determines trust in institutions. And the fact is that, many times, trust isn’t measured in terms of governments’ ability to meet the needs of the people when providing public services but, rather in their ability to be more responsive. Another issue is the quality of democracy. There is major concern throughout the world because there is a general erosion of democracy, in terms of its quality and its spread.

At the end of last year, we launched an initiative to strengthen democracy. It has a very strong facet addressing how to better manage disinformation, what regulations are necessary, and the whole issue of digital democracy and rights in the digital sphere.

The answers aren’t easy – and they may not even exist – but we’ve been seeing a very strong shift in the last couple of years.

Lastly, how do you feel about Biscay in the GovTech panorama?

Well, at the OECD we’re very happy to partner with Biscay and its project, since it’s quite an innovative program at the international level. There aren’t as many opportunities as the ecosystem that they’ve created to explore so many different aspects. It has a program with public calls in which GovTech ventures can participate; public deployment policies, such as public purchasing for innovation; an investment fund to pump money into these companies, and it’s glocal. It’s an example of what can be done in other countries. Biscay is leading the way.

We at the OECD are going to work with Biscay to look at the topic of digital transformation, but also at the issues that we’ve just discussed, and to share with other countries a little about what Biscay is doing. Even the Spanish National Government could be inspired by what is being done in Biscay.

Biscay’s on the cutting edge.